Sri Bhagavan's Skype conference with Sweden
11/19/09
Bhagavan, can you
tell us a little bit about the current
situation?
First of all, it’s the first time I’m
doing this kind of a conference call,
I’m just amazed at this technology,
because I’ve never been exposed to this!
The question is what is the current
situation? The current situation is
Krishna came and met me and they were
saying that what they were doing was
good for the movement, but I could not
agree with that and my stand remains
unchanged. So they feel that what they
are doing is good for the movement. I
could not see it like that. So my stand
continues to be the same. That is the
current situation.
Bhagavan, there are
some people in the south of Sweden who
are having a prep course for 50 – 60
people, the Oneness Experience course,
in a few weeks. What do you think we
should do about the fee, should it be
for free or should they charge?
First thing is, when they do these
courses, there must not be any videos.
People could understand and digest the
contents in the videos, make it their
own based on their life experiences, and
it should become their truth and from
that they must talk. If it’s only a
video, it is speech, it is not work.
Work has a special power of transforming
people and that must come from the
person who’s talking there, that is the
live person who is conducting the
course, he must base it on his life
experience, he must discover that and he
must talk. So I would say that there
should be no videos. That is the first
thing.
The second thing is, with regards to the
fees, I would say it is left to the
discretion of the trainer. Suppose he
goes to a poor locality, where people
can not afford, he might have to do it
free. Suppose he goes to a place where
people can afford, he must fix such
charges whereby it will meet all his
expenses. And sometimes he can also
charge more for his own survival. That
depends on the person who’s conducting
the course. I want the person to have
the freedom. Not Oneness stipulating
conditions. Oneness’s job is just to
train people and let them go. They have
to be on their own. They can organize
themselves if they want to. What rules
they want to form is their business. We
as a body here should, we not interfere
in these matters. Our only job is to
keep training people and finally fade
out from the scene, because we are a
group of monks and monks should not prey
on significance or power or anything for
that matter. Monks should actually fade
away after it’s work is done. Our work
is only training the trainers, that’s
all. It’s not that we should come there,
we should conduct our courses. That way
the local place will never really
develop. Unless the local people do the
courses themselves, they organize things
for themselves without any outside
interference, the dharma or the movement
can not grow.
I have seen people from around the world
who have taken oneness principles,
adapted them, and do wonderful courses.
I have been pointing out this and said,
“to be in tune with oneness, the trainer
must have complete freedom”. The trainer
must not be restricted by a video or
instructions from the headquarters. No.
And regarding the fee structure, it’s
only general guidance. Keep it free or
charge enough so that you meet your
expenses. And in case you’re a
full-timer who’s dependent on that, then
charge to the extent that you can
survive. It should not be a means to
become a wealthy person or this or that.
It should be a means for survival. That
is all.
And as the monks are concerned, they are
not to go out and do courses. If they
do, the local people will not grow, will
not flourish. So their job is only to
train and then quietly and anonymously
leave the scene. This has been a
tradition in India. There have been
hundreds of great thinkers and spiritual
giants who are the founders of Hinduism,
but nobody knows their names, nobody
knows where they lived. They just gave
their teachings and then they became
anonymous and faded away from the scene.
That has been the tradition and Oneness
also has the same principles: fade away
from the scene. Otherwise it is going to
become a cult, it will start controlling
people in various ways and it will be
creating more trouble to the world than
good. As we see all these religions,
what are they doing? They are causing
more harm than good. And we’ll be adding
one more to this whole list of cults and
groups and religions. So I do not want
that to happen. I want to see it
dissolve in my lifetime, when I am
healthy and strong, not when I become
old. I want to have a set timetable for
this and for me the timetable is 2014.
In 2014 we should cease to exist. This
is my stand. This has always been my
stand. It is not a new stand. It has
always been my stand. There used to be a
big board in Satyaloka, in Jeevashram,
at the entrance, which said, “This place
exists to set man totally and
unconditionally free”. That has been my
life. I have been working for that. How
could I move away from that? But of
lately, I see things are moving in that
direction, where “Oneness” is becoming
like a structure. The “O” is a capital
letter, I don’t know why it’s a capital
letter, which means it’s an institution
in itself. These are principles, it
cannot be an institutition. And it can
not be a controlling body. Oneness is a
set of principles, like mathematics,
chemistry and biology – that’s all. That
can not be institutionalized. This is my
stand.
Please continue.
According to the
guides who have now stepped out of the
order, so to speak, they will continue
just like before. Please give us some
clarification for that.
Let us say that you are running Bofors
company. You are the boss of Bofors and
you appoint a manager for Bofors in
South America. Then after some time he
makes some changes and he claims that he
is the owner of Bofors. Would you agree
to that?
No.
Same thing here. They have been sent out
as monks, my monks, to do some
particular work and come back. Now you
are not a monk anymore. You do not
represent me anymore. So what right have
you to continue the work? You have left
me. You are not in the order. This work
is supposed to be done by monks. You are
no more a monk. You’re a normal person
and you have gone out there as my
representative to do my courses. I have
been training, these are my courses and
now since you have left me, how can you
continue with it? What right have you
got; morally, ethically, legally? What
are your rights? You have no rights
whatsoever.
That is why I call this a coup. I hope
you understand the word coup.
What was that
Bhagavan? Coup?
See, for example, in Africa and Asian
countries, some general will overthrow
the ruler, the president or the prime
minister or the elected person, and take
over reigns into his own hands. Like in
Pakistan, Musharraf took over the reigns
from the democratically elected
president, but he’s not in a break-away
group. It’s a coup because they hold the
properties, they hold all the money with
them, they hold the website. I do not
even have a website. It’s all under
their control like you capture a
radiostation. So I’m literally not able
to communicate with the world, because
you people happen to call up I’m able to
communicate. So it is like a takeover,
it’s like a coup, you have no right to
stay on in Italy or in England, because
you’ve moved away from me. You’ve cut
the cord. You’re on your own. So how do
you represent me? What is the right you
have? You don’t have anything at all.
But you continue to say you are Oneness.
You say AmmaBhagavan’s blessings are
there. You say you have AmmaBhagavan’s
permission, there’s no permission. And
you continue to do Oneness there. What
right have you got? You’re taking the
people for a ride. This is what is
happening.
Thank you Bhagavan
for this clarification.
Bhagavan, my name is
Micke and I’m a part of the youth
trainer team together with Elias from
Germany, Daniel and Rochana from Italy
and so on. What I want and what some
other youth trainers want also, is to go
through a much deeper process of
awakening. We went through the 21-day
process, the level 2 process and the
trainer course, but we feel we want to
attend a much more powerful process with
you. I heard of a process where you are
in a dark room for a long time with many
deekshas and so on. Is that process
being offered by you or is that the
level 3?
See, level 3 is basically interacting
with me. What I have been telling them
is, “Instead of you people going out of
India and doing these courses, come back
to India. Let us focus on the trainers.
Time is running out. Let us not go about
doing an LIO course or this course or
that course. Let us get the trainers
here, let us work on them, let us
develop them. They will go and take care
of the world. It’s not our business to
take care of the world. Our work is to
train the trainers”. But they’re doing
exactly the opposite.
Level 3 is people coming to India and
interacting with me on a daily basis, in
the temple or in the World Oneness
Centre, and part of that would be the
dark room process. That is Level 3. What
they were saying was, “If you’re going
to ask them to come to India, you are
making it into a cult”. My argument was,
“If I saw you must come to India! You
must meet me! Then it’s a cult. All I’m
saying is, you’re welcome to come to
India and you’re welcome to talk to me.
If that is the case how does it become a
cult?”
At this level, only I’ll be able to
talk. It’s beyond them. They’ve not been
given the training. They do not have
that knowledge. It’s I that has to
interact with the trainers and develop
them further. Why is it they don’t like
the idea of people coming here? Why is
it they should be stopped there itself?
This has been puzzling. And I’ve said
2012 is coming now. We’re only few
people in number. Let us gather
together. We have to start meditating
here in the temple and that has to be
skyped all over the world. We must
gather and meditate. That’s why we have
built the whole temple itself or what we
call the World Oneness Centre. They are
not for all these things. Time is
running out, we have to improve. The
time is very, very fast. We have to put
more power into them, more teachings
into them. They have to realize these
teachings and talk from there. It’ll
have a tremendous effect.
But instead of that they want to start
big, big LIO’s all over the world and
they say soon it will be 5000 people,
then 10 000 people, then 30 000 people.
Do we need all those people? Why these
big numbers? We’ll only become a better
known cult in that case, we’ll become a
dominating force, we’ll be controlling
people. That’s not what we want. We
don’t want that many people, we don’t
want that much amount, where do we put
all those things? We just have to work
on our trainers. Pick up the good ones.
They say “Oh, they’re not up to the
mark”. Why not? If they’re not up the
mark, let’s work on them, let’s improve
them. There are wonderful trainers also.
We can update the knowledge. If so many
of them go and do courses it will not
become a cult. And I said, give them
complete freedom. They can add and
subtract anything from oneness. Oneness
is not the only format.
Oneness is like sugar, you can add it to
coffee, tea, in chocolate, whatever you
want. That is how we have to prevent
this from becoming a cult. We as an
organisation should slowly dissolve
ourselves. What they are doing is,
they’re destroying oneness. They’re
doing something which is not oneness. If
you’re going to control the trainer, it
is not oneness. If you give a video and
control him, that is not oneness. If
you’re going to tell how much money to
collect, that much should go to the
local body, that to this body, that to
headquarters - that is not oneness. If
the Oneness Trainer does not come from
his own insights, that is not oneness.
If the Trainer does not have the freedom
to add and subtract, that is not
oneness. Whereas the monk, he has to
stick to something. When they do the
courses, they have got to stick to it,
because that is what we are giving. We
can’t do it in a hundred different ways.
That will confuse people. But let people
make use of it in a hundred different
ways. That is what we are telling.
And another thing is, I told them,
“Please come back to India”. What is the
problem with coming back to India? This
problem is only with those dasas who
left India. Not the dasas in India. The
only problem with the Indian dasas have
been those who have been conducting
elite courses. Who stay in elite homes,
move with the elite. They are the ones
who have gone out. Because I said, “Make
those courses free in India”, I said
“India is a poor country. There are
millions who can never afford these
courses in their lives”. And when I said
this they were most unhappy about it.
Now, we are monks, why do you want all
that money? Money we might need for some
reasons, that’s all. But then we ought
to focus on the poor people. Why is it
being such an anathema that you don’t
want to mix with the poor? Are we some
snobbish people? We’re only monks,
that’s all.
So whatever I have been proposing, they
don’t seem to be liking it. Once they
have gone west, they don’t want to come
back to India. And I’ve considered all
that and said “OK, alright, be there
until 2010 or the beginning of 2011,
then you’ve got to come back. Because
there is one year after that, we have to
work very, very hard”. We have told the
whole world, 2012 something is going to
happen. We said in the temple we’ll
meditate, we’ll pass on energies. But
you’re not willing to come back here,
not willing to send people here. What is
going on? Why should you stay back in
the west? If you’re going to stay back
in the west, then why the trainers
then?” The trainers are the ones doing
all the hard work, they’re going out,
meeting people, convincing them. They
should be given more power. It is their
job, not ours. What is the idea of
camping in the west, wanting to stay on
in Italy or wanting to stay on in Fiji,
wanting to be out there and conducting
these LIO’s and all this kind of stuff?
Is that our work? Our work is spiritual
work. Keep them probably in the dark
room, make them meditate, meditate along
with them, keep them in the temple, give
them the insights; that is Level 3, that
is the next preparation.
When I said 2014 we must be out of the
scene, we must become anonymous slowly.
Now if you’re going to do huge LIO
programmes, how do you become anonymous?
It means we are building ourselves up. I
want the reverse thing to happen. The
building up is only of the individual,
not Oneness as a movement or an
organisation. All those hundreds of
trainers, they have to be built up.
*Unclear name* is there, for example, he
is a follower of Rajneesh. And in his
courses he combines oneness so
beautifully and it’s so very effective.
I’ve seen many other people. *Unclear
name* for example, they mix up oneness
in their courses, it’s so wonderful it
is. That’s how it has to go. Why should
they only stick for oneness? There is no
need for that.
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